Special Episode 01|@TikTokRefugee: What Happened in the US
Apple Podcast | Spotify | Chinese Translation
Text Transcription
Introduction
Jasmine 00:52
Hello, I'm Jasmine from China.
Alina 00:54
Hello, I'm Alina. Welcome to Overreactlogy.
Jasmine 00:59
If this is your first time to listen to our podcast, 小题大做Overreactology is a made-in-China podcast. We focus on everyday international relations, namely how the grand geopolitical background impacts an individual's life.
Alina 01:45
Following the first season, we are now making the second season, which directly addresses the central concern of Overreactology. In the second season, we discuss what wars and conflicts at a distance mean to people living in peace zones. For example, with technological development, the digital screens of smartphones have been folding scenes of life in war zones into the everyday life of people elsewhere. Things like solidarity campaigns, boycotts and online debates are the byproducts of the pains of wars and conflicts in peace zones. And strangers living in different parts of the world are now all living together in the clouds in the age of the internet.
In the second season, we have guests from London, Rome, Indonesia and New York City joining us, discussing things about how the world of conflict has unfolded into life with us. However, before we publish the second season, we're trying to produce this very special issue on the recent TikTok refugee phenomena that is happening right now due to the TikTok ban, which maybe will or maybe will not happen in America. So that is kind of related to the second season where we are all living together in the clouds, in the internet age, brought together by, for example, social media and smartphones. Let me explain a little bit about the background. So because of the potential TikTok ban, a lot of TikTok users in America are now migrating to the Chinese social media APP called RedNote (Xiaohongshu).
Jasmine 03:04
And actually this TikTok Ban and TikTok refuge trend is very complicated and it's related with the platform moderation policy of TikTok and also the politics of America. So we will also plan another episode to explain these complicated things. But in this episode, we found a guest who is a TikTok refugee. Nope Brigade is a sociology PhD candidate now studying in the US with a focus on Christian nationalism and right-wing extremism. And she is now a TikTok refugee to Xiaohongshu.
Nope Brigade 03:49
Thank you so much, everyone. I'm so happy to be here. I'm Nope Brigade. I am a TikTok creator who has recently joined Xiaohongshu, or as we've been calling it in the United States, Red Note.
Entrance Exam of the Red Note
Alina 04:02
Welcome. So as a TikTok refugee, there are a lot of questions and interesting phenomenon happening on both side of the internet. And what I've seen on the Red Note is that people are actually making an entrance exam for TikTok users in China. Shall we do it?
Nope Brigade 04:30
You're gonna give me an entrance exam?
Alina 04:00
Yes, let's do it.
Nope Brigade 04:03
Let's do it.
Alina 04:05
Okay, so first question, if you want to express holy crap, how do you say it?
A. xswl
B. Hhhh
C. 666
D. woc
Nope Brigade 04:28
Okay, I Learned this by watching the Chinese Trump guy the other night. And I think it's WoKao. It's like something like that at WOC. Am I right?
Alina 04:41
Yes. Actually, We usually just shorten it by spelling out woc. And the second question is, if you want to express "yes, but..." how do you say it?
A. 3Q
B. SRDS
C. NB
D. YYDS
Nope Brigade 05:11
Oh, I'm gonna fail this one. I thought I was chronically online, but apparently not enough
Alina 05:21
So the correct answer should be B. srds.
Nope Brigade 05:27
SRDS. Okay, spiling that away.
Alina 05:31
Yeah, that is the Chinese phrase for "although, but..." And the third question, if you wanna express “to be honest, to be fair“, how do you say it?
A. XSWL
B. U1S1
C. YYDS
D. WOC
Nope Brigade 06:00
I'm gonna guess YYDS
Alina 06:05
No.
Jasmine 06:06
You fail again.
Alina 06:09
Yeah, yyds actually stands for “the only God forever”. This is to say something is amazing and surprisingly good.
Nope Brigade 06:23
Okay, okay. what's the correct answer first? Because I need to take notes.
Alina 06:29
It's U1S1. And we have a final question. I think that's a bit easier, maybe. So the question is, if you want to express LMAO or LOL, and that's laughing loud, right? How do you say it in Chinese? And that's a multiple-choice question.
A. XSWL
B. 31
C. YYDS
D. hhhh
Nope Brigade 07:06
I think hhhh
Alina 07:08
Yes, that is the correct one. And another one.
Nope Brigade 07:12
Yeah! a 50% rate failing, but still something.
Alina 07:18
Yeah, so another correct answer is xswl and that's short for laughing to death, right? Anyway, thank you for taking the exam, although you're failing, we still welcome you here if you pay a cat tax.
Nope Brigade 07:38
I wish you would ask me about the 666. Because that one stuck with me, because in America, 666 is associated with the mark of the beast, which is this demonic symbol for Christians. So when I saw it showing up on everybody's posts, I was like, what was happening? But it's good in Chinese internet culture.
Alina 08:04
Yes. And the number 6 is actually a very good number in the Chinese culture, right? Like Liu Liu Da Shun, we say, if you have 6, it's like your life is gonna be very easy. That's a very interesting cultural exchange and also a big cultural shock.
Jasmine 08:29
It's also very interesting how Chinese people are using English abbreviation to express Chinese meanings.
Alina 08:37
I feel like the most interesting meme and its translation to the American internet culture is the one with Trump. so we say it "离了个特朗普". That's very insane cuz Li Pu (离谱) is something that's very insane and we don't believe it. And the word PU actually shares a similar pronunciation with Trump's name, its Chinese translation. So we said, cuz Trump is always doing things that sound crazy and it's not very mentally stable something. So we did a meme about that and it's been translated as it's out of conTrump (control) into English. And I feel like this translation is so fascinating, so gorgeous is the person who translated it like a genius.
Nope Brigade 09:50
It's truly excellent. I've also seen that meme of him, like it's Trump, but he has like two little pigtails on top and he looks crazy. Love it. Great job. No notes.
How did Nope become a TikTok user and then a TikTok refugee?
Jasmine 10:09
So in this episode, we will talk about the Trump government and we will also talk about cultural exchange. But before that, I will ask you the your user's habit of TikTok. So according to TikTok CEO, there are more than 170 million American users on TikTok. So before this ban, the potential ban, what did you post on TikTok and how often do you use it?
Nope Brigade 10:42
Yeah, so I started posting on TikTok after April of 2022. TikTok was not very well known in the United States until I think like 2019,2020. And then its users exploded after everybody got stuck in their houses during lockdown during the pandemic. And so I was using it in 2021 as a passive sort of observer. I started posting a couple of videos in April of 2022, just kind of talking about politics. And then I actually got my first viral video on TikTok after the leak of the draft of the overturn of Roe v. Wade, which is the abortion ruling in the United States. So we found out basically in May of 2022 that was going to be overturned. We were no longer going to have abortion as a human right in this country. So I made a video training activists on how to be safe at protests. And it went viral. It got almost a million views. And after that, I started continuing to train activists and then moved to discuss what my platform has mostly become since then, which is political content and discussing my research on right-wing extremism in the United States.
Alina 12:13
So what other social media platform have you used or are you using right now?
Nope Brigade 12:19
I was using Facebook in the earlier period of my life, in the 2000s. But then after the Cambridge Analytica Breach, which I believe is relevant to our conversation because it was where it was discovered that Facebook was selling its user data and didn't care. And so I got so fed up that I left Facebook. And I did have Instagram. It was not owned by Meta at that point, but I have a personal Instagram account. And then of course, Meta bought Facebook and Instagram. So I do use Instagram just for personal stuff, but TikTok is the only place where I have followers. But since the TikTok ban has been happening, I've joined Bluesky and Xiaohongshu.
Jasmine 13:21
So how many followers did you have on TikTok before?
Nope Brigade 13:24
Right now I have 60.8 thousand.
Alina 13:31
Oh, that's a lot.
Nope Brigade 13:33
It's not that much in TikTok numbers, but it's a lot to me, cuz I'm just a regular person.
Jasmine 13:42
You have more followers than our podcast.
Alina 13:46
Yeah, I feel like on TikTok or the new generation of social media, it's easy. Therefore, ordinary people have, let's say, a relatively large fan base. It's like you don't necessarily be a celebrity or a famous person or a billionaire, but you can still have a lot of attention and followers.
Nope Brigade 14:09
Yes, and that's one of the key appeals of TikTok. The algorithm is not built around previously having fame, previously having celebrity status or a well-known audience or like based off of your current networks of people that you're friends with or whatever. It's based on interests. So if you're an interesting person and you can be Joe Schmo, a regular person, and make an interesting video and people will follow you, they will find you. The algorithm will push you and you can get a following here.
And that's why TikTok is the most diverse and most vibrant social media platform that we currently have in the United States because it does uplift native people, it uplifts disabled people, it uplifts elders, and all these different types of people who would not ordinarily be lifted up by traditional social media American platforms. And that's a huge loss because these diverse communities don't like, for example, I was talking to people about this on TikTok. I did not know much about the Native Americans in my society because they were not uplifted and easy to find. But I just started seeing them making jokes and showing their traditional practices and I was fascinated and ultimately became friends with native people on TikTok, which would never have happened on any of these other platforms.
So it's truly a unique place that allows people to shine that would not ordinarily shine. Like I am not somebody who would ever have a following on Instagram or on Facebook. I wouldn't be able to get a YouTube channel going cuz I just don't have the time and energy to be polished, to look good, to have high-quality production value. But with TikTok, you can just go with a camera on your phone and you can be dynamic enough to get a following. It's casual.
The Moment of Global Village
Alina 16:24
Yeah, actually I've read comments on other Chinese social media apps. For example, on Weibo, people were saying this is the most extraordinary moment for the Sino-American relations because it's the people who are interacting. And these days, because of the TikTok refugees on Xiaohongshu, we've seen, for example, a farm owner in Texas and also First-Nations Americans. They are showing their lifestyle, and their culture to Chinese internet users. And also we‘ve even seen people who are discussing this kind of things from there, just the most ordinary sceneries of their life and sharing how ordinary people think about politics, culture and international relations. And that's fascinating. That's amazing.
Nope Brigade 17:29
And it's been so joyful to have this direct connection with ordinary Chinese people. I don't think it's ever happened like this. Like, it feels like the Berlin Wall just fell in some ways.
Alina 17:45
Yeah, and especially like both Jasmine and I, we are Gen Z Chinese people and we are raised up under the grand narrative of globalization. And especially when we were young, like in primary school, we were taught that we are living in a global village where peace and this kind of cultural interaction can bring us a lot of benefits. However, in recent years, let's say, global politics has been turning right and it's like a lot of protectionism, regional things, populism, these kinds of issues have been kind of dismantling this kind of globalization dreams. But this time on the Red Note, we've seen a lot of this kind of dreams come true.
Nope Brigade 18:46
That's very interesting. Americans are not brought up with the idea that globalization is great. Because our jobs were sent to China, right? For working-class people. Our jobs were outsourced around the world, not just China, but around the world. And so there's some resentment towards that of the idea of “jobs being stolen”. Emphasizing the idea of a global village does not happen here. So that actually answers one of my questions of why Chinese people have been so warm and welcoming for Americans on RedNote. And I've heard that phrase “global village” on RedNote, which I thought was cute, but I didn't really know that it had a wider significance. I also found it interesting to see the word netizens used frequently. That is not a word that we use in the United States. And so, that is an interesting new word that sort of entered our lexicon.
Who wants to steal Americans' data and the First Amendment Right?
Jasmine 19:57
So when and why did you move to RedNote? How did you find out about this app? And did your friends also move to Xiaohongshu?
Nope Brigade 20:07
I had never heard of this app until a week ago. I would never have thought of this app as existing before. I'm shocked it's even available in the Apple Store, to be honest.
But yeah, so the TikTok ban has been looming. There's been back and forth. We are like, is it gonna happen? Is it not gonna happen? Is the Supreme Court gonna uphold it or is there gonna get a pass through Congress? You know, people have been frantic because this is people's livelihoods, this is people's communities. This is peep. Like even if you don't have a small business here, which hundreds of thousands of Americans do, somebody like me does make a little bit of income from this. And the pressure on regular people in America financially right now is so extreme and things are so precarious right now in our country. For regular people that taking away that community that a small bit of income or all of your income for some of these creators is a huge deal. And so people have been freaking out
And beyond just the financial aspect of it, TikTok is a platform where people exercise their First Amendment rights. In the United States, we have a Constitution with a Bill of rights. And every American is raised on the idea that no matter what, we have free speech in our country. I think more than any country in the world America is committed to that as an ideal. Probably too much so. I think we should maybe regulate a little more hate speech than we do. But it is nevertheless something that we are committed to and expect. And so the idea that Congress, both parties in Congress could just stick this little provision in a Bill with “must pass humanitarian aid” to ship a bunch of weapons to Israel and Ukraine. Suddenly all of this community, all of their livelihoods, is gone. And the reason is dumb.
They're (the government) telling us, is because they're worried. They're so worried about our data being, you know, turned over to the Chinese government. God, we don't want communists having our data. But in reality, like I said, Cambridge Analytica happened. You know, Google scraping our data, Twitter scraping our data, like everybody in America, any company in America is scraping our data and selling us. I can't tell you how many checks I've received in the mail—like $2 or $3 checks—because some company let my data get leaked on the dark web, and now they've been sued because someone found out. So, they give all these millions of people $3. My data is floating around, and I get $3 for it. So, to have them strip us of our free speech because of some concerns about national security—mind you, they haven't told us what these concerns are. Everything has been done behind closed doors, and we know Meta has been lobbying them. Meta has these decaying platforms with horrible algorithms, and every other post is an ad.
And it's so frustrating for TikTokers to have our app (banned), which has its problems. Don't get me wrong. I have my issues with this app. But to have the one thing that lets ordinary people achieve the American dream, that if you work hard you can succeed, have that ripped away from us with no discussion, no debate. They didn't ask the American people. We've been calling. We've been trying to get their attention and they've been ignoring us. And they've been condescendingly telling us that this is for our good, which is an outright lie. Everybody can see this. And so TikTok users got so pissed that we're like, you’re so worried about us giving our data to like our Chinese people, like Chinese government taking our data? Well, we're gonna go and we're gonna give it to them. We're gonna give it to them directly.
So I started seeing posts on TikTok of creators that I follow saying that, the US government. They can't take away our free speech. They've taken away everything. We don't have healthcare. We don't have safe schools. We don't have infrastructure. Everything's falling apart. We don't get to have the American dream anymore. So how dare you take away our First Amendment rights? And so they were signing up (on RedNote) as a form of protest. So I think the government deeply underestimates how much Americans hate being told what to do. Things are bad in America right now, but like taking away freedom of speech, Americans will not stand for that. And so we went directly to the Chinese government and gave them our data because we're not gonna be told what to do in this way.
I didn't actually join RedNote until I started seeing posts from creators that I follow doing it as a form of protest. But then I started seeing this wave of creators on TikTok talking about how amazing the app was and how wonderful the Chinese people were being to us. And I started getting curious. And so one, to give the middle finger to the US government, which is a time-honoured American tradition, and to also see for myself what it was like. I joined the app and agreed to the terms and conditions that were entirely in Mandarin. So I don't know what I agreed to.
Alina 26:13
Yeah, feel like it's for Americas, what I've experienced is that you guys are really rebellious. If you told me this, I'm not gonna do it right? I'm gonna do the opposite.
Underrepresented Younger Generation vs. Gerontocracy
Jasmine 26:28
I think decision-makers in Congress also have some misunderstanding or stereotype towards TikTok. I think they don't really know what this app is.
Nope Brigade 26:40
No, they think it's just an app for dancing Gen Zers. And in reality, it's been a political organizing tool. It has been a source of mental health help. It has been a source of just community building. And so for them to just cavalierly destroy that for vague reasons of national security, but not actually tell us why - no, Americans are not gonna stand for that. And I've been digging through conservative posts about this ban and they're pissed, too. It's not just on the left. So, yeah, they deeply underestimated us。
Jasmine 27:15
But do you know the approximate number of TikTok supporters?
Nope Brigade 27:22
Oh, I don't know. I do know that about 1/3 of Americans use it. Those people are primarily millennials and Gen Z. TikTok skews younger. And so you've got an enraged, young, disenfranchised population, which has not felt represented by our government. And so, yeah, so it is a form of protest and also now a form of joy and connection and realizing that we've been lied to by our government about China and Chinese people.
Jasmine 28:01
I have another question—why Red Note? Because I know Lemon8 is also supported by TikTok, but why did you all move to Xiaohongshu?
Nope Brigade 28:15
So the reason we moved there was because Lemon8 is owned by ByteDance. And so the idea was that if we moved to Lemon8, it was gonna get banned immediately anyway.
Alina 28:26
Oh, yeah, right. So going back to what you mentioned just now, I did feel it's a very interesting phenomenon, like the political struggle between the youth and older generation. Like when I was studying for my master's degree in the UK, most of my American friends were very annoyed: my politics is controlled by old men. Our next generation, the future of this country or even global politics is actually for the young people. However, it's continuously controlled or played by the elders and they know nothing about the youth culture and what's gonna happen and what's in the minds of young people. So do you think that's also like what the general Americans, especially the TikTok users, think about right now?
Nope Brigade 29:24
Yes. So right now there's massive and widespread discontent in the United States. And for young people, I think for millennials who are now approaching middle age, like 30s and 40s. and I don't know exactly what the average age of the average senator or congressman is, but it's old. It's like, past the 60s. And like the speaker of the house recently denied Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who's like this big progressive Democrat known to millennials and Gen Z as being progressive and we would want this person in power. She was recently denied the right to head as an important committee because from Nancy Pelosi, who was in the hospital getting surgery because she's like 86 (84) years old or something. Our president is like 80 years old. They just will not leave. They will not leave. They will not cede power. And we've seen over and over again in our protests over Gaza, in our desire for student debt relief, that our Congress is not doing anything to serve the people anymore. And so people are fed up with that. And I think coming in the wake of the pandemic, lockdown measures and just how we felt lied to about those, there's just widespread discontent and young people are angry.
Alina 30:59
After American users signed in to the RedNote, I found several interesting comments in the videos. For example, one shows a primary school teacher organizing an event to sing Taylor Swift's songs in a, just a random Chinese primary school class. In the comment section, one American user commented, saying that, ‘I feel like we're all the same’. And then people are making memes to comment on that comment, like two very cute kitty cats. One represented America and one represented China. And there's a love sign, a heart between them. And also there are also AI-generated pictures showing America, the sculpture in New York, the freedom of the goddess. Yeah, hugging another Chinese sculpture together, something like that. So it's very interesting cuz ordinary people (in both countries) actually share similar situations.
TikTok refugee phenomena breaks through the walls of illusion
Alina:
And I think gradually that became something called 中美网友对账, that is, to share the information that you know and to cut off misinformation between your income, the social welfare system, life quality, healthcare and work-life balance, something like that. Cuz previously in China, life in America has been depicted in a very heavenly like all Americans are very rich, they live in big houses, they earn money in a very easy way. And they have a perfect work-life balance, right? You don't need to work after working hours and you can get a lot of social welfare. But then it became, how do you say, it's just something illusional? Because American users also said, no, we are actually suffering from, for example, healthcare issues, the financial crisis, something like that, as you said. So I feel like that's a very genuine and amazing cultural exchange between people, especially ordinary people.
Jasmine 33:42
So did you see something shock you or change your impression towards Chinese people in China
Nope Brigade 33:51
First of all, I wanna comment on the AI-generated picture I saw. I don't know if this is the one you saw, but I saw one of the Chinese clay soldiers (Alina: Yes) with his arm around the statue of Liberty. And the statue of Liberty is pregnant. I thought that was funny as hell.
But yeah, so I probably know much more about China than the average American citizen, where China has been talked about as super authoritarian. It's talked about sort of like as a more developed North Korea, lots of control, lots of censorship, lots of political suppression of free speech. And I have had, you know, Chinese friends in my program. I have studied political dynamics in the United States. And I understand that there's a lot of propaganda going on and stuff and that we've been raised to believe that the USA is the greatest country on earth. And obviously, that's not the case with pretty much any metric at this point. But I think for me, it's just like understanding the wealth of Chinese culture, the diversity of Chinese people.
I saw a really interesting Chinese cowboy. He's a yak herder in Tibet. When he welcomed TikTok refugees, his video was one of the first I saw. And I was flabbergasted because the way he talked, he could have been a Texan. It was mind-blowing the way the landscape looked, how he behaved. He just had a Texan swagger and it was like, oh, my god, there are cowboys in China. But I think something that's really important about this particular exchange happening on Xiaohongshu specifically with TikTokers specifically, is that you're not having Instagram to Instagram users, you're having TikTokers who are known for being way more real, way more honest.
Our Instagram is your Xiaohongshu, right? So Instagram, everybody looks perfect. It's very feminized, everybody shows their best face. And so what we're seeing is China's best face, right? We're seeing middle-class, upper-middle-class, people who live in urban areas who are very fancy, who are stylish, who have great lives. And what you guys are seeing is like the irate Americans who are so mad at the government that they're willing to tell you what it's really like over here. Like we have no qualms with sharing exactly how much we're struggling. And so I think that's really important because it breaks through the walls of illusion, like you were saying, Alina, where you thought everything was so great in America. Right. And we thought everything was so terrible in China, and we're seeing that we have the same humor, we're seeing that we have similar development. You know, we're seeing that we have the means to communicate and (we have) the desire to communicate with one another, and I think that's revolutionary. And I think we have maybe five minutes before this is broken apart, but I'm so happy it happens.
“Chinese netizens are more enthusiastic than we expected”
Alina 37:39
So have you seen anything or did you meet someone or something that you feel like it's a bit offensive on RedNote from China?
Nope Brigade 37:49
No, I've just seen so much excitement and warmth from Chinese people.To be honest, I was shocked at our reception on there because I came of age during like the Iraq war and when I studied abroad in Turkey, actually, I was constantly asked why did you let Bush get into power? And I was like, I couldn't even vote for Bush. What are you talking about? And so I felt very much like people hated Americans. I know that there are negative stereotypes about Americans. We're loud, we're annoying, we take up too much space, all of which are probably true.
But to go to a Chinese app and to just be so overwhelmingly welcomed and to have such excitement and to have these like really fancy Chinese influencers be so excited and be teaching people Mandarin and to be like, here's what not to say on this app if you don't wanna get banned and like, here's how to make money, make content here. That's just so generous and kind and to realize that Chinese people do not hate Americans. And even more than that, to realize that the rest of the world doesn't hate Americans. Because I started seeing posts from people in Belgium, from people in Spain, from Australia, from all over the world, people who had followed us there. And I was like, oh my God, they love Americans. “TikTok's going to be so boring without my Americans.” And I was, and I heard another, a TikTok creator that I followed on TikTok who moved to Xiaohongshu. She said that Americans are like the bad kids in class and we just got sent to detention and everybody wants to come hang out with us anyway to see what we're gonna do next.
Alina 39:51
Yeah, I've seen so many users from like Canada, Australia, even like Germany, the UK, and they say we're for, we're following our American friends.
Nope Brigade 40:07
Yeah, cuz they wanna see what we're gonna do and if we misbehave. But so far we've been behaving, which is great. Cuz I was worried about that.
Community co-creation starting from the "cat tax"
Alina 40:13
Yeah, so at first, like the first several posts from TikTok refugees I saw things like they're doing in a very polite and cautious way, saying that if the other American users did something wrong, I apologize for them. They are also calling for other fellow American TikTok refugees to behave well, do not disturb the Chinese people on Xiaohongshu, or something like that. And that's actually very surprising to me as well. And then what's even more interesting or surprising to me is that people begin to pay cat tax, and that's amazing. Like you using a very cute animal and in this kind of cyber communication and because our love of this kind of small cute animals and people are united together. People are connected. It's not hatred or something. It's not panda diplomacy. It's not Koala diplomacy. It's cat tax. And this is a very cute and welcoming way of reception.
Nope Brigade 41:34
Yeah, I honestly was astonished that Americans were being so polite and careful. And I think that is possibly a result of a lot of these folks coming from more the left, because the left in the United States is not as afraid of China as the right. It's like the right is far more antagonistic towards China, far more convinced of American exceptionalism. And the left is more open and so perhaps more aware that we need to tread lightly and not be rude. And also ungovernable. Americans are ungovernable. And so I think that's why people were like, don't mess it up for us. We're trying really hard. It's new for Americans to have to do that because we're used to being the biggest boss in the room, right? We're used to everybody else coming to us, everybody else coming and conforming to our culture. And so I think everybody is trying very hard to be polite. So that's been so fascinating.
And to on the pet tax, I came like a day after the first flood came. So I don't know when that started. But I saw that people were demanding a pet tax. And I was like, yeah, here's my cat. And I think cats from the history of the internet have always been sort of a symbol of the internet. And so I think that's such a cute way to bond with each other.
Alina 43:07
Yeah, and there are even people making certificates that certify somebody has paid pet tax and allow them to enter Xiaohongshu and become a netizen here, something like that. That's so interesting.
Nope Brigade 43:26
What's wild is that I saw in the app itself a little bar pop up at the top that says, pay your pet tax here. So like the app itself is now saying we're in on it, pay the pet tax. So that's crazy. That's wild.
Fake language in platform moderation resistance
Nope Brigade 45:27
A big complaint that TikTok users have about TikTok as well is censorship. I saw this on the left and the right where people are complaining about getting flagged, getting their content removed, and getting banned. And I've been on TikTok long enough now to see iterations of this. For a while there, we weren't allowed to say Palestine. We weren't allowed to say genocide. We weren't allowed to say sex. We weren't allowed to say guns. So like, people had to develop fake language around it. Like, and it's just like so stupid and so infantilizing, especially for someone like me who literally studies this and wants to talk openly about things like genocide and white supremacy and have to use made-up words instead of being able to just say Nazi. And so we have been dealing with censorship on TikTok too. So it's not new, but I think we don't know what we're allowed to say. And when I first got on, I saw so many hilarious memes by Americans bashing the US government. I'm seeing less of that now. So I don't know if they've started weeding those out or not. But yeah, I think some Americans were like, “we have so much more free speech here!” And I was like, are you serious? No, you do not.
Alina 46:52
Yeah, like just a different kind. We also develop so many like fake language or using emojis to substitute the keywords as well. And sometimes it's also because of the platforms. It's not directly related to the politics itself. But for example, you can't openly talk about money or commercial things, but instead, you need to use, for example, we use rice instead of money or gold to denote how much it is. If you wanna buy something from us, it's not 16 bucks, it's 16 rice.
Nope Brigade 47:34
Funny. Yeah, similar.
American's penpal memory and Lihua's letter
Alina 47:37
So we do share things that are universal between Americans and Chinese. So what kinds of content have you posted on your Xiaohongshu account?
Nope Brigade 47:50
I posted one with my pet tax. So I posted 3 pictures of my kitty. I posted a little note to Lihua.
Jasmine 48:00
Yes, I just saw that post yesterday.
Alina 48:04
It's becoming increasingly trendy to talk about the Li Hua phenomenon cuz it's so touching and moving. Cuz there's one comment on the Chinese side, saying this kind of cultural exchange and TikTok refugees on Xiaohongshu, like the letters written by Li Hua sent to America finally got replies. This is because in China, English education, like the curriculum in schools, usually has a question for the writing test. It usually goes by, if you were Li Hua and now you need to write a letter to your friend in America, usually that person is like Tom or Mike or John. Would you like to introduce something related to China or ask what America is like. And so Li Hua has been a certain kind of cultural symbol for this kind of cultural exchange and also kind of annoying for education because we need to pass the test.
Jasmine 49:23
Yes, but after we graduated from maybe undergraduate uni or high school, then many Chinese don't really have chance to write letter to foreign friends. Alina and I, we are very lucky that we have opportunities to go out of China to study. But I think many Chinese, especially those users on Xiaohongshu, they, they, you can see that they can't even speak influent English. So they don't really have opportunity to communicate with other culture people have different backgrounds. So this time they really seized opportunity to chat with you, to write to their foreign friends.
Nope Brigade 50:08
Yeah, it's been so touching. I had that phenomenon though, Lihua Phenomena explained in a TikTok a couple of days ago. And I was so touched by it. I was crying because it was just so sweet. And as a young person, I was at a school where we would practice sending mail to each other and like, here's where you put the address and blah blah blah. And I loved it and I actually had a pen pal in Scotland and got like one letter. But I always dreamed of having a pen pal and then seeing Chinese people have also had that dream and seeing how lovely it is for you guys to have your letters finally answered. I was like, oh my God, that's so sweet. And it also felt like - here, like here's something we can do sort of like an offering. Like, look, we're trying to meet you in your own culture. You know, we've learned this about you. And here's another nice thing we can do for you while we're here.
How Luigi is interpreted as a people's hero
Alina 51:13
Another very interesting thing is that I've seen American users who were very shocked by, first of all, seeing Elon Musk's mom on Xiaohongshu. And second of all, seen so many discussions surrounding Luigi.
Nope Brigade 51:32
I can't speak to Elon Musk's mom. I have not been on that side of Xiaohongshu, but I was, that was one, like the first, I actually made a couple of videos on TikTok about RedNote and that was like one of the ones that had me wheezing was the fan art of Luigi Mangione, which would I that was not on my 2025 bingo card. Like Chinese people loving Luigi.
Jasmine 51:56
First of all, he is handsome.
Nope Brigade 51:59
First of all, everybody loves Luigi except the ruling elite. So yeah, like we love him in the United States. And like, especially I think young people, I remember a poll saying that like 40% of Gen Z approves of Luigi and was like, yeah, it's fine, shoot CEOs, they're terrible. We hate them. And so to see that Chinese people also felt that way. Not only felt that way, but like was making fan art about it. I just died laughing because that was just so surprising to me. And I actually, I've been talking to a scholar who does media in China and I was like, what the hell is happening here? What is this? Tell me what's going on. So she sent me a post and it was basically like a lot of explanations connecting to Chinese cultural artefacts, you know, like this person acted on behalf of the people and he is a hero and acted morally. And I was like, oh, so we have similar ideas of morality and like acting on behalf of the helpless. But I would not have expected, A) Chinese people to know what was going on in America, and b) to like, have so much sympathy again for Americans because I thought everybody hated us.
Critics of the TikTok refugees
Alina 53:19
So unfortunately, I've also seen a lot of criticism about the TikTok refugees entering Xiaohongshu on not only Xiaohongshu itself, but also other Chinese social media platforms like Weibo. And one of the main arguments they saying is that American life is so easy, like they have wide supremacy already everywhere. They're still having this kind of postcolonial privilege in our Chinese social media apps. They do not need to do anything. They don't even know Chinese, but they can attract so many fans. And the videos with their faces not even have not even wearing very cute makeup already can go viral. But for Chinese social media influencers, they're trying so hard and they still can't attract followers and fans that easily.
So this is the first kind of postcolonial criticism towards the TikTok refugee. And there is also something else. For example, they talk about how Chinese people living abroad, especially Chinese international students and people who work in America have been treated in a bad way. But this time we welcome American users in such a good way. And they feel it's very unfair. And also a lot of things related to censorship we've discussed just now. So that's the key criticism of the refugee phenomena, I would say.
Jasmine 55:06
I think you also mentioned before with me, Alina, you said that older people on Xiaohongshu, now find this app very boring because when they open the app, they cannot understand the content on the app and the content now is too young for them.
Alina 55:23
Yeah, for example, my mom and people of similar age, like in their 50s are using Xiaohongshu as well because Xiaohongshu has been the search engine for Chinese people already. Cuz there are a lot of like travel suggestions, and recommendations for restaurants, and you can even locate an ATM to withdraw notes in the UK for example, in London, just a random corner of the street that has no surcharge for withdrawal. So it's very useful. So a lot of people, not just the middle class, very well-educated groups, are using Xiaohongshu, but also like it has a large population of users. I've seen people saying that one girl talks about her mom waking up one day using, trying to use Xiaohongshu and get not only information but also funny things to entertain. And then realize that she could barely read the contents because it's all in English or half English, half Chinese, discussing the TikTok refugee phenomena. So their life has been changed kind of because these discussions have been so widespread and so viral. And they change the algorithm feed for everybody, every user. Basically, though, it's getting better right now. I'm seeing more Chinese content on my timeline right now.
Nope Brigade 57:05
Well, I'm sorry for everyone who's been trying to find the ATM and instead found Americans very badly pronouncing Mandarin words. I know that there have been discussions of like, is this okay? Is this negative for Chinese people? The way I've been thinking about it is that Americans have no power here. You know, like the minute the Chinese government decides to pull the plug, we're gone. And, and so, I don't see it as like a colonizing thing because we have no power.
I've seen a lot of - maybe this is also just [because of what I’m seeing], it's hard to know because the algorithm is good, right? But I've seen mostly people trying to communicate in both. There was a shift to people communicating in both Mandarin and English in their posts if they were a TikTok refugee. I've spent so much more time in Google Translate than I ever in the past 10 years combined trying to understand what people are saying. So I think that will sort itself out eventually because the algorithm will know, like you said, Alina, if you want Chinese content or not.
And in terms of followers, I saw people blow up on Xiaohongshu who would not have blown up on TikTok. The videos that they post are not great. I think they're just novel at this point in time. And I think, yeah, the good American content creators already have a following, half of which is from TikTok, right? At least. And I think the novelty will wear off because eventually, they will not be particularly useful for what Chinese people want their influencers to say, which is like the best place to eat in Beijing, right? American content creators are not gonna be able to provide that information.
Alina 59:02
Yeah, so I feel like it's very, how do you say, also similar to why TikTok has been so popular among people is because it's very random, very accidental, and you can just trigger algorithm and become viral, become very famous, just not knowing even why.
Is Nope Brigade willing to be a permanent resident of Red Note??
Alina
So I'm very curious. Will you still stay in Xiaohongshu even if the TikTok ban is removed?
Nope Brigade 01:00:15
So I think my answer is gonna be a little bit different from most people who are on there. I've seen Americans say that they love the app, that it's such a good experience. I wish I could show you what Instagram looks like. It is just back-to-back ads. Its content is our TikToks from 3 months ago. It's a bad experience and there are hella trolls, like people who are just making mean comments right and left. It's bad. And so I think people are liking that it (RedNote) is curated and it is censored. I don't know if it was you guys, but someone told me that this app originally was making like young women feel bad about their bodies or their situations. And so the government was like, no, you have to be real and like not make people feel bad. And then people like the government told you guys what to do. That would never happen on Instagram. It doesn't matter how much people are like, this is ruining my mental health. The government would be like, we don't care. We literally don't care about you at all.
But will I stay here? I love the app. I think I would stay as a passive user. So I would like maybe to post a note once in a while, but I do political content and I do heated political content. I'm actually really worried about the political side of things [in America], the fact that they're redefining domestic terrorism to include shooting a CEO, one guy shooting one guy is very concerning. And we are about to witness a fascist government taking control of the United States. And I study fascism. I understand what that does to society. And just because we have historically been a very strong democracy does not mean that we will continue to be a place where people have human rights that are protected. So I am worried about having this app on my phone, to be totally honest with you. I'm worried about if that's going to be considered, you know, being in league with a foreign opponent of the United States or being a domestic terrorist or God knows how they're gonna define it, right? As soon as Trump hits office. And God, two days, kill me. But okay. So, so if I stay, it will be because it's safe to do so.
Jasmine 01:04:03
I think we cannot predict what will happen in 2 days. And both from China and from the US government. And I saw a post by a Chinese before on Xiaohongshu. It says there may be unforceable forces in the future that could separate us again, but at least cherish what we have now. And for me, I think I feel grateful for two things. The first one is that Xiaohongshu is an online space and not a fixed zero-sum physical space where it's a matter of life and death, like, refugees came and we have no space to live at all. So on Xiaohongshu, on the internet, we still are able to find our own space to live and to share our thoughts. And the second thing, I'm also grateful that geopolitical competition or securitization actually led to such an ironic outcome that allowing people, allowing Americans to come and let Li Hua to receive replies from the outside world.
Nope Brigade 01:05:17
I'm in a lot of leftist spaces, they're very intellectual and there's so much in fighting and like critiquing the perfect language. Like should we use "refugee", should we not? Should we call it Little Red Book? And ultimately, what worked to build international solidarity? Cat memes. Americans being so welcomed by Chinese people who have such skills in English that you were able to communicate with us. Like I give so much credit to you guys for knowing English because this would not have been possible without your knowledge of English and without Google Translate. Like your welcoming of us has made this possible. I think we would have left very quickly if we were not welcomed. So the fact that this is happening is a tribute to Chinese generosity and kindness. I really hope it continues because I think this is blowing the lid off of a lot of propaganda that we've had about you.
So yeah, I hope that we're able to see, the amazing sides of China. which I know it's far more complicated than an Instagram version of China, is going to be presented to us. And I hope that we have just blown the lid off of all of these misconceptions and have a much better understanding that China is amazing and Chinese culture is rich and diverse. And I personally want to start watching Chinese films and to see what I can get my hands on.
Jasmine 01:07:50
Yeah, so this is the end of this episode. Thank you so much for joining us. Staying tuned. Let's look forward to the next episode. In that episode, we will explain more about the details of this trial and TikTok platform moderation. Also, stay tuned for our next season.
Alina 01:08:07
Overactology will feature this episode in English. And don't worry, we will strive to bridge communication gaps created by language and other barriers, producing content in both Chinese and English worlds. So we are gonna translate everything. And besides surprise, subscribing via RSS links. You can also find us on X formally Twitter and listen to us on Spotify and Apple Podcast and read our transcripts and production notes on Matters. Stay tuned. Our story is the story of the world. Thank you very much.
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