加密飞行 Vol.6 | 找个技术香巴拉，像写诗一样写代码：Rob＆Story of Zupass

💡Editor's note/编者按

奥林波斯、香巴拉、瓦尔哈拉、迪尔蒙恩、阿瓦隆、伊甸……在“太阳城”出现之前，人们早已无数次梦过理想之地。Rob和他在加密世界遇到的那些朋友们正似《盗梦空间》中的造梦师，有时他们从容往来于真实与幻梦之间，有时为更多人搭建美妙又富于想象的无限花园，而有时，他们也是高明的冒险家，和天生的魔术师。我们很难不问：如果理想之地确有，活跃在那里的人究竟身怀何种天赋？“技术的建设”将旧有的土地变成应许之地，与其追寻一个坐享其成的理想乡，亲手塑造它、为它写下历史和诗篇，这不是更有趣吗？从Zuzalu到今日孢子繁殖般散播开来的Pop-up city群，答案似乎逐渐明朗。

Olympus, Shambhala, Valhalla, Dearmon, Avalon, Eden... Before the "Sun City" appeared, people had dreamed of the ideal place countless times. Rob and the friends he meets in the crypto world are like the dreamers in Inception, sometimes they walk between the real and the imaginary, sometimes they build wonderful and imaginative infinite gardens for more people, and sometimes they are also brilliant adventurers and born magicians. It is hard not to ask: if the ideal place exists, what are the talents of the people who live there? The "construction of technology" turns the old land into the Promised Land, and isn't it more fun to shape it, to write history and poetry for it, than to pursue a comfortable ideal? From Zuzalu to the Pop-up city cluster that spreads like spore today, the answer seems to be becoming clear.

此文是「加密飞行」专栏首辑访谈策划的第六篇，来自友邻社区 SocialLayer 的 Eggy 和 Jiang。作为一群经常在各地巡游的 “飞行员”，他们所带来的独特视野，正是「加密飞行」所想要展示的：一群从过去降落，置身于此刻，并渴望着挑战和探索更好未来的远航者。我们期待着这种展示，能够飞跃语言与物理距离的障壁，成为未来加密公民同现实之间的桥梁。

This article is the Vol.6 in the first series of interviews for the "Crypto Flight" column, curated by the SocialLayer community members Eggy and Jiang. As a group of "pilots" often journeying across different places, they bring a unique perspective—exactly what "Crypto Flight" aims to showcase: a group of voyagers descending from the past, living in the present, and yearning to challenge and explore a better future. We hope this showcase can transcend barriers of language and physical distance, becoming a bridge between future crypto citizens and the realities they face.

Social Layer × Uncommons
Reporter: Eggy＆Jiang
Translator: Maymay
Edit:0614

「加密飞行」(Crypto Flight)

「加密飞行」(Crypto Flight) 是 Uncommons 的人物访谈专栏，围绕活跃在以太坊及加密世界一线的先锋个体，记录加密现实，生产多元视角，将交谈和日常语言作为方法，化约发生在彼处的遥远真实。取自 Antoine de Saint-Exupéry 的 Vol de Nuit(长夜飞逝)，象征密码朋克与加密公民飞向世界尽头的挑战和探索精神。

*本专栏接受投稿，公开招募访谈者和译者，欢迎联系WeChat: RealUncommons 投稿或开设你擅长并且感兴趣的专栏。

"Crypto Flight" is a series of interviews by Uncommons, focusing on pioneers active in the Ethereum and crypto world. It documents the reality of the crypto space and produces diverse perspectives, using conversation and everyday language as methods to distill distant and far-off truths. Inspired by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry's Vol de Nuit (Night Flight), it symbolizes the challenge and exploratory spirit of cypherpunks and crypto citizens as they venture to the ends of the world.

This column welcomes submissions and is open to recruiting interviewers and translators. Feel free to contact via WeChat: RealUncommons to submit your work or start a column on a topic you are passionate about and interested in.

本文为《加密飞行 Vol.6 | 找个技术香巴拉，像写诗一样写代码：Rob＆Story of Zupass》的访谈节选。
访问全文请前往 Uncommons 的 Newsletter：
blog.uncommons.cc/cr...

Rob
An engineer and contributor to the Zupass project

Eggy
Ph.D Candidate in Design for Social Innovation
Co-founder of Social Layer

“没人知道会发生什么。”
No one knows what will happen.

Rob:

Basically, I rejoined crypto, but I didn’t know what to expect—no one did at that time. It was all very sketchy. You had to send some crypto to a given address; there was no website, no information, just a picture of the resort in Montenegro. I thought, "I doubt I'll actually be staying there; it looks too nice. This seems fake somehow." But then I arrived, and it turns out—it was actually real.

基本上，我可以说是从zuzalu又回到了加密领域。但当时我——没人知道会发生什么。一切看起来都很模糊，你得把一些加密货币发送到一个地址，没有网站，没有详细信息，只有黑山度假村的照片。我当时想：“我不会要住在这个地方吧？看起来太好了，感觉有点假。”但最后当我到了那里，发现它确实是真的。

Eggy 

When do you feel real in that moment?

你什么时候开始感觉到它是真实的？

Rob

When I could physically see the building, I thought, “Okay, we’ve arrived at a real place.” I wasn’t sure what to expect, but I met many people—some who became good friends. I got to know the organizers well, including Janine, as well as others like Lawrence and Niklas, who were part of the Zuzalu team and have since gone on to their own projects.

看到实际的建筑物时，才会知道这是一个真实的地方。我在那里遇到了很多人，也结交了很多好朋友，包括一些你也认识的人。比如Janine，还有一些像Lawrence和Niklas这样的人，他们也是Zuzalu团队的一部分，后来都去做了自己的项目。

Eggy 

Before you got involved in this Pop-up city, or what we call society prototype, and then experienced it firsthand, what was the difference compared to just hearing Vitalik talk about building such things and actually becoming a part of it? How did your perspective change after participating?

在你参与这个Pop-up city，或者称之为社会原型项目之前，和亲身体验的感觉有什么不同？相比只是听Vitalik说“我们来建设它”，直到你真正加入其中，你的看法有什么变化？

Rob

I was surprised by the variety of people I encountered. Some were expected, like those who frequently discuss network states. When I went to Zuzalu, there was a dedicated track for network states, but there were also tracks for AI, longevity research, ZK crypto, and other topics. I initially thought most conversations would focus on network states and how to build a city or a network state. However, there were many other topics, and people also spontaneously started projects and activities, doing unexpected and crazy things. I liked the unpredictability of it all—no one knew what would happen, not even the organizers, until things began to unfold. That unpredictability was great because it likely won’t happen the same way again. Now that we have a better understanding of how to organize these events, Edge City is more structured and well-planned than Zuzalu. But there was a unique excitement in not knowing what would come next. Meeting so many diverse and interesting people from different places, countries, and cultures was a real highlight.

让我感到惊讶的是我遇到的人，有些人我预料会见到，比如那些经常谈论网络国家的人。Zuzalu既有这类人，也有关于人工智能、长寿研究、ZK加密等其他领域的讨论。我原以为大部分对话会集中在网络国家和如何建立城市或网络国家的讨论上，结果却有很多其他内容，大家还自发启动了许多项目和活动，并做了许多意想不到的事情。我喜欢这种不可预测性，因为没人知道会发生什么，甚至组织者也不清楚。直到一切展开后才逐渐明朗。这种感觉非常棒，因为这种事情可能不会再以完全相同的方式发生了。现在我们对如何做这些事情，有了更多的理解。Edge City在某些方面比Zuzalu更有组织、更有计划，但那种无人知晓接下来会发生什么的乐趣是独特的。我遇到了许多有趣的、来自不同国家和文化背景的人，这一点很好。

“创业或搞实验，再正常不过了。”
It's normal just to have a startup or to have an effect.

Eggy

So did you imagine this kind of new society before? Like even before, you know, this kind of network state thing.

你之前有想象过这种新型社会吗？譬如在你知道“网络国家”这个概念之前。

Rob

The idea of network states isn’t new; people have been attempting to build charter cities, private jurisdictions, and intentional communities for a long time. For example, during my original crypto startup, we went to Liechtenstein—a small European country with around 30,000 people, but technically a sovereign nation with its own laws, banking licenses, and regulatory systems. Many people were interested in creating legal frameworks for crypto there because Liechtenstein’s small size allows things to move quickly if the right people align. A lot of libertarian-minded people were drawn to Liechtenstein, as it has some of the attributes people seek in network states: it’s small and can adapt quickly. The great thing about what we’re doing now is that we’re taking these concepts into the real world, not just writing blog posts or studying other people's projects. We’re trying new things, and even if they don’t all work, I believe the experiments are definitely worthwhile.

“网络国家”这个想法并不新鲜。人们早就在试图建立特许城市、私人司法区和共识社区了。就像我之前做的那个加密初创公司，有回我们去了列支敦士登，在一个非常小的欧洲国家，人口大概只有3万左右，但它是一个主权国家，有自己的法律和银行监管系统。有一群人试图在那里做加密项目，为加密建立法律框架。很多自由意志主义者对列支敦士登感兴趣，因为它具备人们想要的网络国家的一些特点：小而灵活。因此行动可以很快。现在很棒的一点是，我们试图在现实世界中做事情，而不只是写博客文章或研究别人已经做过的事。我们在尝试新的东西，这些尝试可能不会成功，但我认为这些实验是绝对值得的。

Eggy 

What do you think about the experiment is definitely worthwhile in any aspect?

你认为这些实验在哪些方面具有绝无仅有的价值？

Rob

So the thing that I thought was really interesting in Zuzalu, and I think it's the same here at Edge City, is that the social norms or the social expectations of people are very different. So in most places, in most parts of the world, if you want to start a business, create a new product, make art, whatever, you're kind of weird and unusual. And most people might think it's good that you're doing that, but they might also think like, why doesn't that person get a proper job?

You have a lot of pressure on you because you're trying to create something new and then the rest of the society around you doesn't really understand what it is you're doing. And like why you're doing it, why you don't just give up and be normal like everybody else?

在Zuzalu，社交规范或者人们的社交期望与大多数地方非常不同。在大部分世界上，如果你想创业，创造新产品或者搞艺术之类的事情，会被认为很怪异。大多数人可能会觉得你做的事情挺好，但同时他们也可能会想：“为什么这个人不找份正经的工作呢？” 你会感受到很大的压力，因为你试图创造新的东西，但你周围的社会并不真正理解你在做什么，也不理解你为什么不放弃，像其他人一样“正常”生活。

Eggy 

And sometimes it's like self-limitation. Yeah, like you just trying to limit it yourself. 

有时候这也是自我限制吧，就像你自己在限制自己一样。

Rob

Whereas here in this community, it's normal just to have a startup or to have an effect or to, it's almost have free startups, but like it's normal to be doing something unusual. I think that's very important for people that they feel supported and understood by the community, particularly when things are not going well, that there are other people around who can help and who understand what it's like to go through the difficult process of creating something.

在这个社区里，创业或搞实验再正常不过了。几乎所有人都有一些不寻常的项目。对于很多人来说，特别是当事情进展不顺利时，感受到来自社区的支持和理解是非常重要的。Zuzalu的其他人明白创业或创造新事物的艰难过程，他们会给予帮助和支持。

Eggy

We (Social Layer) totally feel this point. People are so supportive of this experiment. Rather than like if we put our product in some community that maybe is limited by the current society, they may think, wow, it couldn't  be “product market fit”.

我们完全理解这种感受。人们极其支持这些实验。以Social Layer为例，相较于把我们的产品放在某个可能受到现有社会限制的社区中，他们会认为“这个产品没有办法Product-Market Fit”。

Rob

Exactly. And I think is good. I think it can be a very emotional experience for somebody, particularly, I think, for younger people who've never experienced being in a community where other people share those interests and ambitions.

To experience it for the first time can be very powerful. I definitely saw that in Montenegro. Here, I think it's less of an issue because there are lots of people from the US and lots of people from San Francisco or the Bay Area generally. And they already have that. San Francisco already has that. It's just normal to be a founder. It's normal to be, you know, have some unconventional kind of career or name. And so for them, they already know what that's like. But for most people in most parts of the world, and even in Europe, I think it's very unusual for people to start businesses or make their own new products. and it's a problem because we don't have enough of those people.

完全正确。这种支持是非常情感意义上的体验，尤其对那些第一次置身于这样一个共享兴趣和抱负的社区中的年轻人来说，它可能非常有力量。我在Zuzalu看到了这一点。在这里 (Edge City) ，这种问题不太明显，因为很多人来自美国，特别是旧金山湾区。对他们来说成为创业者是正常的，有不寻常的职业也是正常的，他们习惯了这种生活方式。但对世界上的大多数人，甚至在欧洲也是，创业和创造新产品仍然是很不寻常的事情。

Eggy 

Recently I talk to some friends and we said that crypto it is kind of suck. But the people we met in crypto are super great. You can't meet them in other places.

最近我和一些朋友聊到，加密领域本身有些让人失望，但我们在加密领域遇到的人却非常棒，你几乎不可能在其他地方遇到他们。

Rob

I think that's true. Because crypto people are weird. So if you go into regular tech startups, you meet people who are like 25 and from the age of 12, they knew what career they were going to: Tech. And they went to Stanford and then they did computer science. And then they came out and then they got the internship. And they're like, and it's like talking to people who work in finance or something like we wanna go and work for the bank and they're like, you know, work for Mckinsey or something.

It's terrible. It didn't used to be like that 20 years ago. It didn't, the tech industry was not like that 20 years ago. You didn't need a degree to get a job if you could code. And crypto is like that. Crypto is still like nobody cares where you were, like what university you went to, nobody cares where you came from or what you did before you were in crypto. So when you talk to a crypto person and you say, so where are you from? What did you do before this? They'll give you the most weird (answers). Because nobody ever grew up thinking I really wanna be in crypto.

确实如此，加密领域的人都有些“奇怪”。如果你进入普通的科技初创公司，你遇到的人通常在25岁左右，他们从12岁起就知道自己要从事什么职业：科技。后来他们去了斯坦福，学习计算机科学，接着工作，获得实习机会。这感觉就像是跟那些在金融行业工作的人交流，发现他们的目标是去银行工作，或者进麦肯锡之类的公司。

20年前的科技行业并不是这样的，这简直太糟糕了。你不需要学位，会写代码就能找到工作。现在的加密领域仍然是这样。没有人关心你去了哪所大学，来自哪里，或者在进入加密领域之前做过什么。所以，当你跟加密领域的人聊天，问他们来自哪里，之前做什么时，他们会给你一些最稀奇古怪的答案。因为没有人是从小就想着“我长大后想进入加密领域”的。

Zupass：“我们真正地解决问题。”
we gonna solve a problem through crypto.

Eggy

You are trying to build the Zupass. Is this your idea?

建设Zupass，这是你的想法吗？

Rob

That was started well without me and by 0xPARC (en.wikipedia.org/wik.... When I went to Zuzalu, I didn't know anything about Zupass. The first time I saw Zupass was when I got there. And that was where I met the team. They're doing is real in the sense that there's a real technology. Like there's something like there's some real cryptography. And it's not just like, how can we create this marketing thing where we pretend that we're gonna solve a problem in some industry somewhere and it's gonna use crypto somehow, and then you make a token and then you raise millions of dollars and then nothing happens.

这个项目在我加入之前就已经开始了。它是由0xPARC启动的。我去Zuzalu时完全不知道Zupass的存在。随后我遇到了这个团队。他们是非常好的一群人，而且他们正在做的事情是实实在在的技术，其中包含了真正的密码学，而不是那种“通过营销假装解决某行业的问题，使用加密技术，发一个代币，筹集数百万美元，最后什么都没发生”的套路。

Eggy 

You use a very simple way to summarize the crypto industry. And it‘s still the same.

你用非常简单的方式总结了加密行业。

Rob

They've got better at it. Like back in 2016, if you wanted to find a scam crypto project, you had to run the scam yourself personally. It's very primitive. Whereas now they have like all kinds of agencies and like, middlemen. And so you just stand there and like talk nonsense and you never get copied on any emails involving any kind of scam. And it's great. But back in the old days, you had to run it yourself. And I mean, I remember being off. I remember we've seen we weren't doing so well in my startup. We needed money and we got an email from a guy in Austria, I think he said, I'm a financial advisor to a wealthy investor. And this investor, he's seen your project, you'd like to invest. I thought that was very surprising. Nobody else wants to invest. I wonder why this guy wants to invest. But okay. And so I have a call with this Austrian financial advisor and he seems completely convincing. And so I say, okay, great. Well, we're in London. The whole team is in London. You know, if you're client, the investor would like to come and visit us in London, then we'd be happy to meet him here. And you can see the whole team. 

现在他们只是变得更擅长做这些事情。在2016年想找到一个骗局项目，必须得亲自运行这个骗局，这非常原始。现在有各种代理和中间商，你只需要站在那里说废话，根本不涉及任何实际的诈骗操作。我们公司当时做得不太好，所以需要钱。有个来自奥地利的家伙给我们发了封邮件，自称是一个金融顾问，他的投资者看中了我们的项目。我觉得很意外，为什么这个家伙会想投资？但我还是和他通了电话，因为这个顾问看起来非常有说服力。所以我回复道，“太好了。我们都在伦敦，如果你的投资者愿意来伦敦，我们非常乐意在这里见他，并且展示整个团队。”

And the advisor said, no, I'm sorry, that won't be possible. My client is in Italy. He's in Milan. He has some construction projects there and he's very busy. So if you want to do this, you have to go and meet him. I was like, okay, okay, fine. I can get a cheap flight to Milan for a day and come back. So I did and I got there and saw a partner is gonna meet him in a hotel. It was a bit strange to meet somebody in a hotel. Like, why doesn't he have an office? But okay, let me meet him there. So I get to the hotel, and 45 minutes go by. The guy still hasn't appeared. I'm like, oh, maybe this was all nonsense. So I'm calling the advisor and he's not answering. Like an hour and a half, still nothing. And I think, well, I've got a flight home at the end of the day, so I'm not like, I'm gonna sit in the hotel and wait, you know, and then eventually the advisor calls me back.

Oh, yes, he wants to meet the investor wants to meet, but at a different location. Wants to meet you in this cafe, kind of like out of town. So I get and I get an Uber and I go out to this cafe. It's a small little cafe. And I come in and there are three Italian guys sitting in the cafe. There's one young guy. So I think knows like probably the one who knows most about crypto. One guy in the middle who's in his 30s and another much older guy with a big mustache who sits there, who's, he's apparently he's the lawyer, but he doesn't say anything. He's just sitting there.

They wanted to offer me cash for tokens in a briefcase. Like I said, like, how do you expect me to like, we're talking about 3 million euro investments. Like how do you like, you know how you do it? You know, how do you want to like to do the transaction in theory? And he says, well, what we can do is we'll go to Switzerland. You can come, you bring your laptop, and we'll bring a briefcase and you send the tokens and we give you the briefcase. And then we walk out and we never see each other again.

顾问说，“抱歉，我的客户在意大利米兰，他非常忙。如果你想继续，你就必须来见他。” 我心想：“好吧，去米兰当天往返很便宜。” 于是我到了米兰，结果计划在酒店见这个投资者。为什么不是在办公室，而是在酒店见面？但我还是去了。45分钟过去，这个人没有出现。我给那个顾问打电话他也没接。一个半小时后仍然没人出现。我心想，反正我已经买了回程的航班。最后顾问回电，说投资者想在别的地方见面，于是我叫了Uber，那是一家小咖啡馆，坐着三位意大利人。最年轻的那个可能对加密最了解，中间那个三十多岁，还有一个年纪更大的有大胡子的家伙，他是律师，但一直没说话。

他们想用手提箱里的现金换取代币。于是我问：“我们谈的是300万欧元的投资，你打算怎么完成交易？理论上如何操作？” 他说我们可以去瑞士，你带上笔记本电脑，我们带上手提箱。然后你发送代币，我们给你手提箱，永远不再见面。

Eggy

But they do the investment. How could they get the money back?

但他们进行了投资。如果交易不成功呢？

Rob

That’s exactly what worried me. If they don’t get their money back, I’m the only person they know, so they’ll come to me asking for it. And all I can say is, “Sorry, we’ve already spent it.” I was really scared at that point, so I said, “Thank you very much, but I need to consult with the board on whether we want to proceed with this transaction.” Like I said, back then, if you wanted money, you had to personally meet with the Mafia. These days, things are much better organized. I have a friend who can never return to South Korea because he defrauded too many people there. He ran a crypto project mostly based in South Korea, but it never amounted to anything.

这正是让我担心的地方。如果他们拿不回钱，唯一认识的人就是我，他们肯定会来找我要钱，而我只能说：“抱歉，钱已经花完了。” 那时我非常害怕，所以我说：“非常感谢，但我需要和董事会商量是否继续这笔交易。” 那时如果你想要资金，就不得不亲自去见黑手党。现在这些事情容易得多。我有个朋友因为在韩国诈骗了太多人，所以再也不能回去了。他的加密项目主要在韩国进行，但项目毫无进展。

So I join 0xPARC Because they're doing something that's real and that is not about selling tokens to people. So that felt good to me.

我加入0xPARC，是因为他们在做的是实实在在的事情，不是靠卖代币给别人，这让我感觉很好。

译后/Maymay
Postscript

在翻译这篇关于Rob与Zuzalu和Edge City经历的采访时，我被他的故事深深吸引。Rob的经历不仅仅是关于技术探索，更是关于个人在快速变化的世界中寻找归属感与意义。他从现实资产上链的早期尝试，到参与Zuzalu的网络国家实验，展现了Web3领域中那些想要打破常规、重塑社会结构的人们的探索与冒险。

翻译过程中，我努力保留Rob的个人风格，他的叙述中既有对过去的反思，也有些许的幽默和对未来的期待。例如，Rob谈到那些参与Zuzalu的人时，充满了惊喜和好奇，这种真实的感受让我觉得他不是仅仅参与一项技术实验，而是在寻找一种新的生活方式和社区关系。

Rob在采访中的表达很有温度，尤其是他对社区建设的热情让我感同身受。他希望通过这些实验，能为那些有创意和梦想的人提供一个支持的环境，这让我想起许多在探索新世界中的人们，面对未知时既有兴奋也有挑战。这也是我在翻译时特别想传达的部分——这些不是冰冷的技术词汇，而是承载着希望和可能性的故事。希望这篇翻译能让读者感受到Rob的真实情感和他对未来的探索热情，也能激发大家对Web3和新型社会实验的兴趣。

全文Shownote
“你们都应该来这儿。”
Zuzalu: you should all come.
“没人知道会发生什么。”
No one knows what will happen.
“创业或搞实验，再正常不过了。”
It's normal just to have a startup or to have an effect.
Zupass: “我们真正地解决问题。”
we gonna solve a problem through crypto.
“社区应该创造更多。”
Community has to create more.

👇文中图片来源
X @rob_knight @ZupassProject
devcon.org
0xparc.org/about
edgecity.live/blog/z...

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